SPOILER discussion for GHOST IN THE SURGE
A few people have asked for a spoiler-discussion thread for GHOST IN THE SURGE, so I started one with this post. If you have questions or thoughts about GHOST IN THE SURGE, feel free to post them in the comments here.
Note that the comments will certainly have spoilers for GHOST IN THE SURGE and all nine GHOSTS books (and probably most of the short stories, while we’re at it), so read at your own risk!
-JM
This is awesome! Thanks for making this, now I don’t have to hold this all in, haha.
So the big one was Halfdan’s death. Was there an importance to it other than Caina losing an influential backer within the Ghosts so someone like Aeolus could keep pushing for her death later? Don’t know if it was that or maybe also the fact that it would sort of speed up her deciding to have her own Ghost circle like she did at the end, but it was so sudden and shocking. Corvalis’s at least I expected because of what the Surge said before they went into the portal.
Speaking of which, Aeolus was an annoying dude. Was he meant to just be a cautious character as a high circlemaster, or will we be seeing more of him which might explain some of his views from this book?
Surprisingly I was pretty sad to see her Ghostsilver weapon get destroyed in the end. Don’t think she’ll as easily find one in Istarinmul but its been her go-to weapon for destroying sorcery and something she’s always needed/relied on in her battles. Curious as to what she’ll use in the next book but I’m sure that would be a spoiler for Cowl so this one’s just a talk-piece.
I liked that Thalastre was a good character. Was kind of worried from the last book that maybe she was secretly being used (poor Kylon if so) or would turn out bad but she was really classy with Caina and is a great match for Kylon, like when she got the hint in Malarae (or Marsis) and wanted to see Ark’s forge.
I felt so bad for Caina, first she lost her father and had her life changed, then she lost both Halfdan and Corvalis as she was ready to settle down. Girl just can’t catch a break despite living the adventures of someone ready to retire. I’m interested to see in future books whether this latest blow changes her subconciously and if she’ll ever allow anyone that close again, at least for a while. Jadriga’s downfall with her feelings for Corvalis also made it hard to hate her at the end, with her basically being killed while she mourned the loss of someone she “loved.” But at that point it had to be done anyway to stop the golden army.
Lastly (for now), so would Jadriga have won her war against the Gods/God if she succeeded in using the Elemental Princes and Caina hadn’t stopped her, or been stomped? 😉
No problem!
“Was there an importance to it other than Caina losing an influential backer within the Ghosts so someone like Aeolus could keep pushing for her death later?”
It was mostly because Jadriga had told Sicarion and Ranarius to get Caina out of the way, and Sicarion and Ranarius (unfortunately for Caina and for Jadriga’s plans) liked to play games, which included killing her friends and loved ones. They could have saved themselves a lot of trouble if they’d simply put poison in her coffee, but they both hated Caina too much by that point to do the rational thing. Because of that, Caina lost her protector in Halfdan, which meant there was no one to defend her from Aeolus’s paranoia and Lord Corbould’s grudge.
“Speaking of which, Aeolus was an annoying dude. Was he meant to just be a cautious character as a high circlemaster, or will we be seeing more of him which might explain some of his views from this book?”
He’ll be back eventually. He was mind-controlled by the magi as a younger man, and the damage from that destroyed his ability to feel emotion. So he has the preservation of the Empire and containing the magi as his highest goals, and he is willing to do anything it takes to reach those goals. Since the damage from the magi badly affected his conscience, he is willing to entertain quite a range of methods. Naturally, this makes him an extremely effective circlemaster, if ruthless.
“Don’t think she’ll as easily find one in Istarinmul but its been her go-to weapon for destroying sorcery and something she’s always needed/relied on in her battles.”
Yes. She will definitely have to be more resourceful with sorcerers in the future.
“I liked that Thalastre was a good character. Was kind of worried from the last book that maybe she was secretly being used (poor Kylon if so) or would turn out bad but she was really classy with Caina and is a great match for Kylon, like when she got the hint in Malarae (or Marsis) and wanted to see Ark’s forge.”
She’s very politically astute, which will help Kylon a great deal, since Kyracian politics is a snake pit. The Assembly is modeled a bit after the democracy of ancient Athens, and the Athenians had a habit of exiling successful generals as threats to the State, so Kylon will have to watch himself.
“I felt so bad for Caina, first she lost her father and had her life changed, then she lost both Halfdan and Corvalis as she was ready to settle down.”
I’ve heard the key to writing a good book is to create a likeable character and then ruin their life, so clearly I am following that advice. 🙂
But, yeah, she had a rough go of it in SURGE, and she’ll be raw in the next book, or probably the next several books.
“Lastly (for now), so would Jadriga have won her war against the Gods/God if she succeeded in using the Elemental Princes and Caina hadn’t stopped her, or been stomped?”
Actually, what Jadriga was trying to do was essentially a category error, like dividing by zero, calculating pi to the last digit, or accelerating past the speed of light. Entering the realm of the gods physically like that would require infinite sorcerous power (like going faster than light), and the mortal world would have been ripped apart and the netherworld badly damaged long before she had anything near enough power summoned.
-JM
Ah, that explanation of Aeolus explains why Kylon couldn’t sense anything from him. I was wondering if something was wrong with him in the bad sense but would have found it off that he could get so high within the Ghosts if he was bad. Also an interesting explanation of what could have happened if Jadriga’s plans had been successful in happening. Where did you get the influence for something that grand of a scheme?
Here’s another one – so with Caina’s hated of sorcery, even to the point of not liking Claudia for like two books, why would she have found an ally in Talehkris so easily instead of be wary of him like she normally was?
I liked seeing Komnene again in Mask but will we see the unarmed combat master that trained Caina again too? Or did he die off in your mind through other adventures/time?
“Where did you get the influence for something that grand of a scheme?”
Believe it or not, some years ago I was reading a review of Philip Pullman’s HIS DARK MATERIALS, and the reviewer complained that the trilogy was a let down – in the books God turned out, like the Wizard of Oz, to be a humbug behind a curtain. The reviewer pointed out that it would have been more interesting in the protagonists had actually defeated God and established a new government in Heaven – sort of like Milton’s PARADISE LOST only in reverse. The idea started then. And certainly people have wrestled with the question of “why does God let bad things happen” since the time of Job, if not earlier. So Jadriga decided that God or the gods were tyrants that had created an evil world, and that she would overthrow them and make a new world.
Most of Jadriga’s backstory came to me when I was reading THE COMPLETE PYRAMIDS by Mark Lehner (a book about every pyramid in ancient Egypt), and his description of the ancient Egyptian afterlife. Initially I based her more off someone like Baba Yaga in Slavic mythology, but when I wrote GHOST IN THE BLOOD in 2009 I had no idea that the series would go on so long and Jadriga’s backstory grew.
“Here’s another one – so with Caina’s hated of sorcery, even to the point of not liking Claudia for like two books, why would she have found an ally in Talehkris so easily instead of be wary of him like she normally was?”
She never completely trusted him – he did try to kill her in Cyrioch and Calvarium both. That said, by the time they met again in SURGE, Caina was pretty desperate, and needed a powerful ally against Jadriga and Sicarion. And she admired (and was a little horrified by) the way he spent nine hundred years trying to undo the mistake he made in teaching Jadriga.
“I liked seeing Komnene again in Mask but will we see the unarmed combat master that trained Caina again too? Or did he die off in your mind through other adventures/time?”
Akragas is retired, but he might turn up again at some point. :
there was a lot of plot simulates between GHOST IN THE SURGE and the short stories was that on purports
Yes – I wanted to get the books and the short stories in sync in GHOST IN THE SURGE.
Hi,
I have to say that by the time I finished SURGE, my jaw was hanging. I’m still not sure how I feel about everything but I’ll start with the biggies.
1. Halfdan dying was a HUGE blow. At first I didn’t believe he had really died (was hoping for anything to happen; from a miracle to a dream sequence.) Caina has always been about her father and I always felt that Halfdan was the real flesh and bone dad while the Count was something akin to a beautiful memory hoisted on a pedestal. Might be just me but i always got the impression that he was a kindly man but who didn’t stand up to his wife nearly enough. (Until the end).
2. Corvalis was never my favourite (not after FORGE) but still he was someone who understood her and loved her true and I’m infinitely sorry to see him go.
3. The Empire was what Caina fought for. True she started out to avenge her father but she stayed to help the masses. Everytime she risked her life and her sanity it was for the empire and in the end when she needed saving they turned their backs. Logically I understand her friends couldn’t do anything to change the Emperor’s mind but i still hoped for some show of solidarity. Anything other than just letting her leave. I don’t know what you plan to do with Caina but I have this feeling that she is gonna sink a lot further into the part of her that makes her so dangerous. And at this point I’m not even sure if it’s going to be the rage or the ice.
4. On the flip side; I love what you’ve done with the Kyracians. Usually the Empire are the good guys (like an us against them) but these guys are formidable in their own right. I hope to see some new faces and old faces in Istarinmul. The golden army was terrifying, I have to say the final fight in ASH was fascinating, revolting and horrendous at the same time (definitely AWESOME) and the golden army was that in spades. I thought they were all done for actually. Was expecting bodies left and right. The Surge was an interesting character. Are her powers really God given? They have to be from some outside source since the recipient can change, if not a God then maybe an item of power? (Just speculating.) Anyway she is the first person I’ve seen with immense power actually use it wisely (the sages don’t count, lol they need to redeem everyone’s estimation of their intelligence. But I’m just snarking.) Her words to the emperor actually made me grin; new adventures to come!! Coupled with what Halfdan said in BLOOD about their being about 100 sorcerers out there with the amount of power Jagrida has who should have died long ago and how she was looking to release Legion to give herself an advantage. I realise her goal was much bigger but does this mean we get to see some new big bads? You have done a great job one-upping your villians and I can’t wait to see whose next after the Undying Who Planned To Kill The Gods and Who Almost Did. Speaking of the golden army what does this mean for the masses? How many dead? Damage to Infrastructure? The economy? Especially in a place like Istarinmul with probably billions of dead slaves in mass graves?
I’ve yet to read the anthologies because I’m saving them for the end so I don’t spoil the timeline for myself but I know you intend to make her a circlemaster. I was wondering if so, does this mean the books will be from another point of view? The POV of the person getting into all the action since Halfdan and Theodosa usually stay behind the scenes. I hope not because I love Caina and I’m looking forward to many many more adventures.
This is far longer than I meant it to be and yet not nearly enough. Thank you so much for everything; especially the frequency of the releases (which feel like eons apart.) It’s a brilliant series and I hope to see much more.
Wow, the observations and opinions here are spot on with how I felt as well. And you do raise some interesting questions, I’m curious to know what the damage done to Kyrace translated to as well! I completely forgot about Halfdan’s mention of the 100 or so sorcerers that shared Jadriga’s power, but that does leave a lot of room for more foes in future books.
One thing I like about J.M.’s writing is that his newer villains, while they one-up the previous ones, never do it so far as to where you could say that the current Caina would easily win against them. A lot of comic/anime storylines are done that way to where their skill or abilities they possess in the current arcs would just obliterate their earlier foes, but I feel if Maglarion were resurrected somehow, it would be just as difficult to put him down again. If anything, it would be harder because they would be more cautious around Caina and leave fewer holes in their defenses.
A lot of comic/anime storylines are done that way to where their skill or abilities they possess in the current arcs would just obliterate their earlier foes.
That is something many writers struggle with – Power Creep in their characters over a long series. I think I’ve managed to avoid that in THE GHOSTS so far, since while Caina is clever and in good shape, she is still a normal human woman with no sorcerous powers. So if she doesn’t keep her wits about her, any sorcerer is dangerous to her – or a competent swordsman, for that matter.
That said, there are different forms of power, and at the start of GHOST IN THE SURGE, Caina had acquired quite a lot of influence in Malarae, simply from being rich and knowing so many people. So starting over in Istarinmul, a huge city where she knows virtually no one, will be a challenge.
Thanks for the kind words! I am glad you liked the book, even though it was the roughest one for Caina since the first one.
1. Halfdan dying was a HUGE blow. At first I didn’t believe he had really died (was hoping for anything to happen; from a miracle to a dream sequence.) Caina has always been about her father and I always felt that Halfdan was the real flesh and bone dad while the Count was something akin to a beautiful memory hoisted on a pedestal. Might be just me but i always got the impression that he was a kindly man but who didn’t stand up to his wife nearly enough. (Until the end).
It was definitely a blow for both the readers and Caina. Caina would not have said that she was his daughter and Halfdan would not have said that he was her father, but they both acted as if it were true. Trying to move on without her mentor, I suspect, will be quite difficult. More to come in GHOST IN THE COWL.
2. Corvalis was never my favourite (not after FORGE) but still he was someone who understood her and loved her true and I’m infinitely sorry to see him go.
That was definitely a tough scene to write. Caina dealing with that shall be a big part of GHOST IN THE COWL, and no doubt subsequent books. But Caina is only twenty-two at the end of GHOST IN THE SURGE, so there is more to come.
3. The Empire was what Caina fought for. True she started out to avenge her father but she stayed to help the masses. Everytime she risked her life and her sanity it was for the empire and in the end when she needed saving they turned their backs. Logically I understand her friends couldn’t do anything to change the Emperor’s mind but i still hoped for some show of solidarity. Anything other than just letting her leave. I don’t know what you plan to do with Caina but I have this feeling that she is gonna sink a lot further into the part of her that makes her so dangerous. And at this point I’m not even sure if it’s going to be the rage or the ice.
Alas, it is often the case that no good deed goes unpunished – think of the story of say, the fast food manager who stops a thief and gets fired for violating corporate policy. And Caina will definitely feel betrayed for some time. But because of what happened in New Kyre and in the netherworld, there will be consequences, some of them unexpected, and Caina is going to start encountering some of them within the first pages of GHOST IN THE COWL.
4. On the flip side; I love what you’ve done with the Kyracians. Usually the Empire are the good guys (like an us against them) but these guys are formidable in their own right. I hope to see some new faces and old faces in Istarinmul. The golden army was terrifying, I have to say the final fight in ASH was fascinating, revolting and horrendous at the same time (definitely AWESOME) and the golden army was that in spades. I thought they were all done for actually. Was expecting bodies left and right. The Surge was an interesting character. Are her powers really God given? They have to be from some outside source since the recipient can change, if not a God then maybe an item of power? (Just speculating.) Anyway she is the first person I’ve seen with immense power actually use it wisely (the sages don’t count, lol they need to redeem everyone’s estimation of their intelligence. But I’m just snarking.) Her words to the emperor actually made me grin; new adventures to come!! Coupled with what Halfdan said in BLOOD about their being about 100 sorcerers out there with the amount of power Jagrida has who should have died long ago and how she was looking to release Legion to give herself an advantage. I realise her goal was much bigger but does this mean we get to see some new big bads? You have done a great job one-upping your villians and I can’t wait to see whose next after the Undying Who Planned To Kill The Gods and Who Almost Did. Speaking of the golden army what does this mean for the masses? How many dead? Damage to Infrastructure? The economy? Especially in a place like Istarinmul with probably billions of dead slaves in mass graves?
The Surge’s powers are a form of farseeing that get passed from wielder to wielder. Whether they are in fact a gift of the gods or a form of normal (super)natural phenomenon is something that I let individual characters decide for themselves.
The golden army was an interesting scene to write – it was essentially Sinan’s madness writ large. And there will definitely be global consequences. When Caina arrives in Istarinmul, she’ll find that it is tremendously unstable, partly because of the upheaval of the golden dead, and partly because of other things that have been happening. Istarinmul has been an unstable place for a while, and the twin shocks of losing the war to the Empire and the golden dead will have set quite a few events into motion…
I’ve yet to read the anthologies because I’m saving them for the end so I don’t spoil the timeline for myself but I know you intend to make her a circlemaster. I was wondering if so, does this mean the books will be from another point of view? The POV of the person getting into all the action since Halfdan and Theodosa usually stay behind the scenes. I hope not because I love Caina and I’m looking forward to many many more adventures.
This is far longer than I meant it to be and yet not nearly enough. Thank you so much for everything; especially the frequency of the releases (which feel like eons apart.) It’s a brilliant series and I hope to see much more.
The anthologies kind of have their own continuity. I eventually found that maintaining continuity between the novels and the SWORD & SORCERESS anthologies became impossible, so I’ve decided that the SWORD & SORCERESS stories operate on their own continuity, like original STAR TREK versus rebooted STAR TREK.
Thanks again! I’m glad you liked the book.
PS. If the Surges powers are God given does this mean that the Gods take a hand in the mortal world? Do they have sides? Like a specific God is worshiped here so they have their power here? Do they war against each other? Did the feel the disturbance Jagrida caused? Will they take a hand in the mortal real???? Lool I might be overexciting myself but it’s a fun concept to consider. (Fun and scary)
I am happy to say that I am a fan of your writing. I have read all of your various series and short stories and enjoyed them all. However, I just finished the Surge and was confused by several points in the story. I have been following Caina`s adventures in the Sword & Sorceress anthologies (through #28) and they have a very different demise for Halfdan, a different back story for the patchwork man and a different male associate. I had thought that the short stories were from a later period in her life until the similarities in this last novel seemed to collide with the other time line. Was that intentional? Should they be viewed almost as two different series?
Thanks for the kind words about the books and stories! I am glad you liked them.
Concerning the continuity, it is my fault – THE GHOSTS developed very organically, so there are inconsistencies between the SWORD & SORCERESS stories and the novels. I wrote the first two SWORD & SORCERESS stores in 2007 and 08, and then GHOST IN THE FLAMES in 08. In 09 I wrote the story with the “patchwork man”, and in the second half of 09 I wrote GHOST IN THE BLOOD. By 2010, I had gotten tired of attempting to get traditionally published, so I figured I would write CHILD OF THE GHOSTS as a prequel to the first two books, and then focus on short stories and tech blogging.
Then I found out about the Kindle, and the three GHOSTS books suddenly got quite popular. Naturally, it was time to write sequels! Except the number one reader question for the first three books was “when will Caina have a love interest?” Eventually I added Corvalis Aberon – except I had never envisioned Caina having any love interest at all, and I had written all those SWORD & SORCERESS short stories under that assumption. Plus, I had never planned to write any more books after GHOST IN THE BLOOD, which meant that I had never thought Sicarion was actually a disciple of the Moroaica.
So I tried to keep the novels in line with the continuity in the short stories, but the snarls kept getting worse. Finally, when I got to GHOST IN THE MASK, I reached a point where I could either tie the book into convoluted knots trying to match the continuity of the SWORD & SORCERESS stories, or I could go in a new direction, so I chose to go into a new direction with the novels. The short stories now take place in a sort of parallel continuity.
So, it’s my fault, but it’s really a good problem to have. 🙂 I never thought THE GHOSTS would go on this long, after all, and I’m grateful that the books have done so.
-JM
I love reading everyone’s thoughts and observations on the Surge – in fact, on all of the Ghost books to date. Halfdan’s death was certainly an emotional blow – I was NOT expecting that. And that is what makes you a great writer – if you keep me guessing, then I am all in as your reader!
One of my feelings on why Caina is so successful against her foes is that they are all egomaniacal in some fashion. And Caina accepts her flaws (what some would call weaknesses), which actually gives her more strength. She is not only exceptionally observant, but is an excellent listener. To many people like to hear themselves talk, and they miss so much!!
JM – Caina is such a fascinating, flawed and sometimes broken individual, but she doesn’t give up. The Ghost series are fun to read and I look forward to introducing these books to my 11 yo daughter so she can meet Caina and all of her cohorts.
Can’t wait for Ghost in the Cowl.
Thanks for the kind words about the books! I am glad you liked them.
I have found that a healthy appreciation of one’s own weaknesses is necessary to get anything done. 🙂