Reader Question Day #9 ADDENUM – more on the Wheel of Time
Manwe writes with additional questions about The Wheel of Time:
First of all, I can;t believe you read the entire series all over again, lol! That is one heck of a long saga, and to read most of it twice?? You got a lot more chutzpah than I ever had! I usually only read a tale once, to read Jordan’s saga twice?! Madness I tell you! Jokes aside, you must have enjoyed the series alot to do that.
Yep. I read it twice. Specifically, I only read books 1-10 twice. By the time I decided to pick it up again, it had been so long that I feared many of the details had slipped my mind. So I started over from the beginning again.
Nevertheless, the Wheel of Time Wiki proved invaluable for refreshing my memory. They didn’t have wikis back in 1998 when I started reading!
And this is where my second point comes in, was it just the piles of unresolved subplots that made it frustrating for you, or was it the length as well, or rather Jordan’s habit of ‘padding’ his books (which I have seen him accused of).
The unresolved subplots. I suspect the subplots were necessary for a story of that size – it’s hard to get 13 books out of the same three point-of-view characters. That said, it does slow things down. I don’t know if that constitutes “padding”, since it retrospect a lot of the subplots do hang together well. Of course, a final judgment will have to wait until the final volume comes out later this year.
Also you recommended that I read to the 200 page mark of the first novel, but then you went on to say in another paragraph how boring the first 200 pages were, and that it was only AFTER the 200 mark that it got good. So which is it then, read to the 200 mark, or should I continue a little further to see if I get hooked as well?
I’d say read the first third of the first book or so, and see if you like it or not.
Next on the list, I have stacks of books to read, adding another series to that pile, especially one as long as Wheel of Time, well you can see why I might be a little hesitant. You seem to like the series very much. So let me ask you this, overall, is it worth my time? Let me say it another way. Of all the many fantasy stories out there, is the Wheel of Time one of the better ones, so that if I didn’t read them, I’d be missing out on something great?
I’d say it’s one of the better ones. Granted, there’s not a lot of competition in the “15 book fantasy series” field. And the comparative worth of literature is almost wholly subjective. But the Wheel of Time did have a big impact on the current fantasy field, since people seem to either hate or love it.
Since you have read through the many books, can you give me a brief synopsis of what the saga is all about. LOTR, for example is about Frodo’s quest to destroy the one ring, and thus save middle-earth from the dark lord Sauron. Is there a way you can make a statement like that about Wheel of Time, or does it’s many subplots make it to difficult to do so?
Basically, the main character, Rand al’Thor, discovers that he is the reincarnation of the Dragon, a legendary hero who sealed away the Dark One (sort of a combination of Satan, the Gnostic Demiurge, and the Zoroastrian Ahriman) three thousand years earlier. Except the Dragon screwed up, and in the process of sealing the Dark One’s prison, the Dark One tainted the male half of the One Power, the source of “magic” in the world. That means that any male magic user inevitably descends into homicidal insanity.
Including Rand, who must somehow stay sane long enough to face the Dark One at the prophesied Last Battle.
Of course, a lot of other stuff happens.
Last but not least, is the world of Wheel of Time worth saving? By that I mean it is not another crapsack world right? I trust you know what I mean by crapsack, seeing as how I remember you used that to describe GRR Martin’s world in a previous post. This series is nothing like his right? I’d hate to be immersed into a saga only to have it turn sour on me, that is why I ask. I did hear the books have some eastern/buddhist/hindu philosophy in them, in the sense of an eternal return mechanic working in them, not sure if that is a good thing or not?
Oh, certainly not. The Wheel of Time is nowhere near as nihilistic as A Song Of Ice And Fire, or a lot of the other current popular fantasy series. Granted, there is a lot of violence and some sex, but it’s nowhere near as explicit or graphic as A Song Of Ice And Fire. And Rand, the main character, struggles constantly to do the right thing, or to figure out the right thing to do, even if he frequently goes about it the wrong way, or causes himself (and others) immense harm in the process. (In fact, I didn’t catch on to this the first time, but I’d say one of the chief conflicts in the series is Rand’s inner struggle, his fight to stay sane and to retain his humanity.)
As for the eastern influences, it’s hard to pin down any one thing, since there are a lot of influences in the Wheel of Time. The conflict between the Dark One and the Creator is very dualistic, a bit like the Cathars or the Zoroastrians. There are parts taken from Norse mythology – Rand al’Thor is a lot like the Norse god Tyr, and his friend Matrim Cauthon grows increasingly similar to Odin. Like “Lord of the Rings”, there is no organized religion in the series, but everyone seems to share a belief in “the Light” and “the Creator”, whereas Darkfriends (secret worshipers of the Dark One) have to stay underground. The idea of “the Wheel of Time” is of course from eastern philosophy. The idea that there is a “male” half and a “female” half to the One Power is intriguing – and I like the premise that neither is superior to the other, and that the greatest works of the One Power could only be achieved by men and women working together. The Aiel nation in the book is a lot like the Apache or the Sioux, and the Children of the Light are a bit like the Teutonic Knights. Arthurian mythology also plays a part – there’s a sword in the stone (literally), and several of the character names are Arthurian.
Given the breadth and number of influences, it’s difficult to say that the Wheel of Time is an explicitly eastern work – I think Jordan just used whatever he thought would strengthen the story.
-JM
Thank you very much for taking the time to answer my questions! And my questions even got their own post, thanks! 🙂
“They didn’t have wikis back in 1998 when I started reading!”
No they certainly did not! I find the wikis to be very helpful…well with unimportant things, get into anything serious and the info you find is less information and more ideology.
“I don’t know if that constitutes padding”
Well by padding, I meant that he wrote to fill a word count, in other words, he added fluff to make his books longer. At least that is what I heard him accused of.
“the final volume comes out later this year.”
So it’s all coming to a close in 2012, eh? Well that’s good, at least you will be able to see how it ends before the world itself ends later this year 😉
“But the Wheel of Time did have a big impact on the current fantasy field, since people seem to either hate or love it.”
I’m sure something so popular must have had an impact, and yet I don’t here so much about the series nowadays.
From your synopsis of the story, I gather that this book series may be right up my alley. One question though, you talk about the Dark One, and describe him as a combination of Satan, the Gnostic Demiurge, and Ahriman, well I certainly know about Satan, and I’m somewhat familiar with the deceptive gnostic god, but Ahriman, well that is hit or miss with me, I have heard many different accounts of him, ranging from Satan’s twin brother, to a philosophical portrait of evil, down to a very hinduish like part of nature, all the way to a devourer of worlds. What is it you mean by Ahriman? (and may I just say…Ahriman again??! Good lord I see him way to much in modern fantasy! And yet I wonder why this is? Is it because he comes from a foreign mythos, and thus seems exotic to a western audience? Or rather is it because he shares some similarities with Satan, and thus becomes another way to invibe the devil while giving it an illusion of something different?
“The Wheel of Time is nowhere near as nihilistic as A Song Of Ice And Fire”
Thank God. The last thing we need is another Martin saga, I do very much dislike that series, and I should add, alot of the current fantasies, which, following in Martin’s footsteps, really seem to be more anti-fantasy than anything else. Well at least stuff like the first law trilogy. Then again, alot of books are like that now. I wonder what Tolkien would think of fantasy today? I wish there were more like him. Or hey even a Gemmel, his books could be grim, but never nihilistic.
“The conflict between the Dark One and the Creator is very dualistic, a bit like the Cathars or the Zoroastrians”
It’s always dualism in fantasy, lol. And yet look at father of High Fantasy, Tolkien, his works were not dualistic, and yet he managed to pull it off. Do you think it’s because alot of the fantasy writers that followed were not as grounded in or even knowledged in philosophy/theology as Tolkien was?
Cathars, uh, you sure about that? The cathars were a very, very strange group of heretics, so I don’t know if Jordan would have used them. So maybe you mean the Zoroastrians? Unless Jordan’s races hate the material realm? The cathars or the ‘pure ones’ as they liked to call themselves, would make a very good villian in a fantasy. If I ever decide to fully write one of my own stories, I might just add a group like them in there! 🙂
“and the Children of the Light are a bit like the Teutonic Knights.”
Ah! I do so love the Teutonic Knights! (I’m sure you can tell I’m a history buff, hehe)
“I think Jordan just used whatever he thought would strengthen the story.”
Maybe so. I don’t know the man’s personal beliefs, so maybe it just was that? Or maybe they meant something more to him? All I know about him is that he was a Vietnam vet before he ever became an author.
Thanks again for the thorough response to my questions! I think I will check the series out, in part thanks to what you said about it. The other reason is that (not sure if you saw it in my other response) Obsidian Entertainment (makers of Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2, and Neverwinter Nights 2) has begun working on a video game series based off Wheel of Time! Given my love of RPGs, especially fantasy RPGs, I’m sure I’ll be playing it. So why not check out the books they are based on, right?
“What is it you mean by Ahriman?”
The Zoroastrian god (or spirit) of evil. I believe most strains of Zoroastrianism espouse some form of dualism, with Ahriman as the god at the evil (or destructive) end of the pole. The Dark One in the Wheel of Time wants to unmake the universe, so the description fits.
“Do you think it’s because alot of the fantasy writers that followed were not as grounded in or even knowledged in philosophy/theology as Tolkien was?”
I suspect not. But Tolkien knew a lot about a lot of things.
“Cathars, uh, you sure about that? The cathars were a very, very strange group of heretics, so I don’t know if Jordan would have used them. So maybe you mean the Zoroastrians? Unless Jordan’s races hate the material realm?”
Not so much – Jordan’s world is mostly populated by humans, though some nonhumans do turn up often. Among the Darkfriends (those who follow the Dark One), most do so for the promise of riches, immortality, power, and so forth – the usual pact with the devil type stuff. However, the few most powerful (and evil) Darkfriends are smart enough to recognize that the Dark One wants to unmake creation, and so support him in that goal.
“Maybe so. I don’t know the man’s personal beliefs, so maybe it just was that?”
I believe he was a high church Episcopalian, though I could be mistaken.
Also, for the next few days Tor is selling the 1st 420 pages of “The Eye of the World” as a $0.99 ebook. So if you’re curious (and you have an ereader), it might be a good way to see if the series would be to your liking:
http://www.amazon.com/Two-Rivers-World-Book-ebook/dp/B0071NMDZ4
I see what you mean about Ahriman, and yes Jordan’s book would fall into area. My confusion on Ahriman comes from several different accounts of him that I have heard, though I do believe most believers in him espouse the portrait of him you spoke of. Most of the stuff I was mentioning came not from Zoroastrains, but western pseudo scholars inventing their own theories on this or that.
“But Tolkien knew a lot about a lot of things.”
Yes he certainly did! 🙂
“Darkfriends are smart enough to recognize that the Dark One wants to unmake creation, and so support him in that goal.”
Fantasy nihilists, eh? Interesting!
“I believe he was a high church Episcopalian”
Very interesting! I do hope that was true. For a genre that was forged by Christians of yesteryear(the origins of literary fantasy begin in the 1800s), Fantast today seems too often dominated by ‘pagans’ (the fake kind), new agers, and nihilists. Which I think is sad on multiple levels, including it’s depth, which I think has shallowed in recent years. Ideology, modernism, nihilism, these things seem to just seep right into fantasy today. 🙁
I know you write for Marion Zimmer Bradley’s fantasy magazine. Were you ever a fan of her writing? I never was, her feminist ideology was too much for me, and IMHO always detracted from her work. I found it interesting that near the end of her life, she returned to the episcopal church, which years earlier she had abandoned in favor of radical feminism. If you ask me, her return gave a nice ending to her story.
“Also, for the next few days Tor is selling…”
Thank you for that info! However I had already ordered the full book of amazon before I saw this. But thanks again anyway. It’s ok, the book was only like 6.99 anyway, which was a nice price. Also I think the book you pointed out was actually taken from the young adult version of WOT. Odd that they even released a young adult version of the series, I doubt there was much needing to be censored there. Maybe they just did it for marketing reasons.